Are foreigners supposed to be extroverts?

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Re: Are foreigners supposed to be extroverts?

Postby channamasala » Sat Aug 31, 2013 22:59

Kal El wrote:
channamasala wrote:As for the husband, he doesn't seem to have a problem being an introvert. Occasionally students say he is "serious" but few seem to say that like it's a bad thing. Generally I think locals find him nice, approachable and non-threatening, and they like that. One friend (Taiwanese, male) once said to me, "oh, I don't like those foreign men. Always dating Taiwanese girls, always want one night stands, always spend money and be loud...but not Brendan. He is nice. He is good guy." Me: "Are you just saying that because he's my husband? :confused: " "NO! Really! He is good guy. He is not like the usual foreigner. I think he is suitable for Taiwan." "But...what about me, eh? :wink: I'm loud and I like to say bad words and argue about politics. Am I suitable for Taiwan, then?" "Oh yes! You are loud, but you are okay, because you are very funny."

Seems like the only common thread there is you're both ok, and the between the lines text is because neither of you are screwing any local girls.

:idunno:


It's somewhat true that my friend thinks B. is OK because he's not "screwing any local girls" (I won't pretend this particular friend doesn't hold a grudge against that...he does. But it's focused on the one-night-stand Asian fetish types, not the "I adore my Taiwanese girlfriend/wife" folks). But the common thread is more that he thinks introverts are "more suitable for Taiwan", and B, unlike many foreign guys (who are often more extroverted than local guys, although obviously not always), is just that. And that I would normally "not be suitable" but I get a pass because I'm funny. If I weren't funny, I might not, as women here are expected to be more introverted than men in my observation.
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Re: Are foreigners supposed to be extroverts?

Postby Kal El » Sun Sep 01, 2013 01:08

channamasala wrote:
Kal El wrote:
channamasala wrote:As for the husband, he doesn't seem to have a problem being an introvert. Occasionally students say he is "serious" but few seem to say that like it's a bad thing. Generally I think locals find him nice, approachable and non-threatening, and they like that. One friend (Taiwanese, male) once said to me, "oh, I don't like those foreign men. Always dating Taiwanese girls, always want one night stands, always spend money and be loud...but not Brendan. He is nice. He is good guy." Me: "Are you just saying that because he's my husband? :confused: " "NO! Really! He is good guy. He is not like the usual foreigner. I think he is suitable for Taiwan." "But...what about me, eh? :wink: I'm loud and I like to say bad words and argue about politics. Am I suitable for Taiwan, then?" "Oh yes! You are loud, but you are okay, because you are very funny."

Seems like the only common thread there is you're both ok, and the between the lines text is because neither of you are screwing any local girls.

:idunno:


It's somewhat true that my friend thinks B. is OK because he's not "screwing any local girls" (I won't pretend this particular friend doesn't hold a grudge against that...he does. But it's focused on the one-night-stand Asian fetish types, not the "I adore my Taiwanese girlfriend/wife" folks). But the common thread is more that he thinks introverts are "more suitable for Taiwan", and B, unlike many foreign guys (who are often more extroverted than local guys, although obviously not always), is just that. And that I would normally "not be suitable" but I get a pass because I'm funny. If I weren't funny, I might not, as women here are expected to be more introverted than men in my observation.

So he's just pissed that he sits at home rubbing one out after playing Halo, while whitey goes out into the world and gets a real live woman, who happens to be a Taiwanese female, that probably wouldn't let him near her enchanted Kingdom unless he had more money than Croesus.

I got that. You can try and explain it as much as you want, but he's a wanker with little dick insecurity issues. You and B are ok because you aren't laying pipe to winsome Taiwanese taimei. Well, I'm Taiwanese, so he can go bugger off down some rabbit hole. They're not "his" women. He needs to go find himself one.

Back on topic. Apart from Little Dick Self Esteem Issues and his ilk, there are many ideas about what a foreginer is and what a laowai isn't. Basically, whitey gets the title for "laowai" or "waiguoren" and everyone else has their own dubious title. Like in most cuntries, the average person is an uneducated mug that has quaint beliefs.

Jesus. Get on with it. Who cares what some wanker thinks? So you're an introvert. Or an extrovert. Don't let yourself be determined or not by the fact tht you are or aren't laying pipe to a Taimei. Be yourself. Change some things in situations where you have to (I have to watch my voice, because apparently it makes 8 year old Taiwanese girls and Californian men piss themelves).

Be you.

You're an awesome, if flawed (like the rest of us) person.
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Re: Are foreigners supposed to be extroverts?

Postby Budgerigar » Sun Sep 01, 2013 06:35

Kal El wrote:he's just pissed that he sits at home rubbing one out after playing Halo, while whitey goes out into the world and gets a real live woman, who happens to be a Taiwanese female, that probably wouldn't let him near her enchanted Kingdom unless he had more money than Croesus.


I gave you kudos for that. Classical references are always praiseworthy. :)

Seriously though, my wife and I used to get a lot of crap from Taiwanese males, and some females, too (all on visas, not Taiwanese Americans), who used to played some fairly dirty tricks to try to intimidate us when we were first dating, including denunciations of me and our "behavior" sent to her family in Taipei, and some even nastier stuff. I think some of it had to do with the stereotype of Yanks as promiscuous rather than extroverted, but it was mostly a matter of power within the Taiwan expat community from which she came. The male leaders let her know in no uncertain terms that she needed to lose the Waiguoren, and a lot of their rage came from her clear choice to defy them.

After that they apparently told their lackeys to give us a hard time. The worst case was when my future-wife's Taiwanese roommate (apparently) ditched my car keys during a severe storm and then complained to building management when I had to spend the night in their apartment--even though I slept on the couch. The management could have cared less, of course, but the fuss was intended--and succeeded--to humiliate my wife and damage her reputation among the older members of the Taiwan expat community (remember this was 20+ years ago).

Did I mention that some of these folks--and all of our persecutors--were fundamentalist Christians? :facepalm:

Anyway, after we got serious/married, all that went away. The fundies never accepted us (no regrets there), but I managed to win over the rest by going out to a restaurant with about a dozen of them and (at the whispered instructions of my then-fiancée) picking up the tab. After that the non-Christians (including those who had not been at the restaurant) let me into the club. Looking back, I am so very proud of my wife for her courage in those days.

Sorry if I went off topic a little. It's been a long time since I've even thought of these things. But yes, I've done some time as the dirty Westerner, too.
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Re: Are foreigners supposed to be extroverts?

Postby HeadhonchoII » Sun Sep 01, 2013 08:19

99% of it is sexual jealousy wrapped up in a thin veneer of culture and customs.
But you got to ask yourself the question....what would astronaut Chris Hatfield do?
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Re: Are foreigners supposed to be extroverts?

Postby channamasala » Sun Sep 01, 2013 22:36

Well, he's married with two kids - and seems to genuinely love his wife - so I would fathom a guess that he doesn't sit at home playing Halo wanting to "find himself a woman". He's also a pretty good looking fellow who seems to have had a lot of experience before marrying, so he was hardly a lonely, jealous, angry nerd.

Anyway, the dude's my friend. I'm not defending his opinion. But it's his opinion.

I too find a certain stripe of 'go to an expat bar to lay an Asian chick and then go again the next night to find another, and then complain about 'psycho xiaojies' when the first one shows up angry' to be...well, they can do what they like. I won't defend them either, that's their thing and the women are consenting, so whatever. But I am not a big fan of hanging around such guys and have been known to cut a few out of my social circle because I found them to be just plain gross. I bet they'd be just as gross back in their home countries, though.

But that's just one type of expat, and I certainly wouldn't begin to put every expat guy in that category. I would never say that every expat guy with a Taiwanese girlfriend or wife, or even 'who knows how long this'll last' fun buddy, is that guy. Just some. And they're gross enough to give the whole lot of expat men a bad reputation (in comparison, people don't seem to think expat women in Asia exist). I highly doubt my friend puts all expat men into that category either. I suppose he might (and if so, he'd be wrong). Maybe I'll ask him.

However, do you really believe that among expat men in Taiwan, that there isn't a certain subset (again, not all) of them who are misogynist, Asian fetishist wankers? Do you think it doesn't exist? Do you think that anyone who calls it out is a loser who's just jealous or can't get any?
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Re: Are foreigners supposed to be extroverts?

Postby maoman » Sun Sep 01, 2013 23:12

channamasala wrote:However, do you really believe that among expat men in Taiwan, that there isn't a certain subset (again, not all) of them who are misogynist, Asian fetishist wankers?

I think that men mostly just like women. The women here are mostly Asian. I've heard guys say "man, the women are hot here", but that's usually in the sort of places where hot women might go. I imagine there are some great nightclubs in Buenos Aires. I imagine that many of the Latina women in them are hot. Does that make the men that like them fetishists? Misogynist? Wankers? I dunno. It's just guys and girls, isn't it?
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Re: Are foreigners supposed to be extroverts?

Postby channamasala » Sun Sep 01, 2013 23:21

maoman wrote:
channamasala wrote:However, do you really believe that among expat men in Taiwan, that there isn't a certain subset (again, not all) of them who are misogynist, Asian fetishist wankers?

I think that men mostly just like women. The women here are mostly Asian. I've heard guys say "man, the women are hot here", but that's usually in the sort of places where hot women might go. I imagine there are some great nightclubs in Buenos Aires. I imagine that many of the Latina women in them are hot. Does that make the men that like them fetishists? Misogynist? Wankers? I dunno. It's just guys and girls, isn't it?


Mostly, you are right.

Well...there are misogynist wankers everywhere, that's not isolated in Taiwan or even Asia. So on that part I'd say, no, no, there are definitely misogynist wankers here. Some local, some expat. That doesn't mean every guy who plays around a bit is one, but it also means that if someone says "yeah, they exist", that it's not fair to just say "you're a jealous nerd who plays Halo all day and can't get any!".

As for "men just like women and most of the women here are Asian", yes, you are right. Mostly.

But fetishism does exist, and Asian fetishism exists, and there are some foreign men here who have that problem (I really need to emphasize that "some" because I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea that I think all expat guys fall into this category). I imagine there are local men who do too, and for that matter, there are probably women who fetishize men. I can name a few that I've met personally. And not just "I don't like him so I'm going to label him an Asian fetishist asshole", but they've come right out and said it. Hard to argue with that.

It's really irritating, though, every time it's even whispered that there might be some guys like this in Taiwan, that the person who says it is dismissed as being lonely/sad/racist/a hater/jealous/a loser/a dweeb/whatever.

It's a bit over-defensive, maybe?
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Re: Are foreigners supposed to be extroverts?

Postby Toad » Sun Sep 01, 2013 23:23

channamasala wrote:However, do you really believe that among expat men in Taiwan, that there isn't a certain subset (again, not all) of them who are misogynist, Asian fetishist wankers? Do you think it doesn't exist? Do you think that anyone who calls it out is a loser who's just jealous or can't get any?

They are a definite minority; I've met, like, maybe two of them, and it was no more than a casual conversation. But every culture has its assholes. They just come in different flavours (OK, bad metaphor, I know). This part of the world does tend to attract a certain sort of slimy guy who goes on about Asian women (like they're all basically identical) and their ... attributes. Any normal person - Taiwanese or "Western" - probably wouldn't choose to hang out with someone like that. But as maoman just said, for the vast majority, it's just men and women, innit? It's stepping way over the line to complain about people getting it on simply because the man is a foreigner. You can paint that whichever way you like - racism, bigotry, culture, ignorance - it's weird and unpleasant, and I personally wouldn't even want to be in the same room with someone that screwed-up.

And then you've got the Taiwanese enclaves in the US which, if Budgerigar's story is anything to go by, attracts the sort of would-be patriarch who's actually a blue-flipflop-wearing nobody back in his home village, but suddenly becomes Head of The Clan in darkest California, defending the purity of the Taiwanese bloodline against the depredations of those dirty foreigners. WTF is wrong with these people? Don't they have their own lives to live?

Assholes all. Just different flavours.

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Re: Are foreigners supposed to be extroverts?

Postby channamasala » Sun Sep 01, 2013 23:44

Toad wrote:
channamasala wrote:However, do you really believe that among expat men in Taiwan, that there isn't a certain subset (again, not all) of them who are misogynist, Asian fetishist wankers? Do you think it doesn't exist? Do you think that anyone who calls it out is a loser who's just jealous or can't get any?

They are a definite minority; I've met, like, maybe two of them, and it was no more than a casual conversation. But every culture has its assholes. They just come in different flavours (OK, bad metaphor, I know). This part of the world does tend to attract a certain sort of slimy guy who goes on about Asian women (like they're all basically identical) and their ... attributes. Any normal person - Taiwanese or "Western" - probably wouldn't choose to hang out with someone like that. But as maoman just said, for the vast majority, it's just men and women, innit? It's stepping way over the line to complain about people getting it on simply because the man is a foreigner. You can paint that whichever way you like - racism, bigotry, culture, ignorance - it's weird and unpleasant, and I personally wouldn't even want to be in the same room with someone that screwed-up.

And then you've got the Taiwanese enclaves in the US which, if Budgerigar's story is anything to go by, attracts the sort of would-be patriarch who's actually a blue-flipflop-wearing nobody back in his home village, but suddenly becomes Head of The Clan in darkest California, defending the purity of the Taiwanese bloodline against the depredations of those dirty foreigners. WTF is wrong with these people? Don't they have their own lives to live?

Assholes all. Just different flavours.


I agree with you, Toad. I wouldn't know how much in the minority they are, just that they exist. As I said, I don't think it's every guy. I do know one personally, and avoid him as much as possible. And of course the Internet's full of crap from asshole expats, but it's also full of crap from assholes who never left home.

I have expat male friends but spend most of my time around expat women or locals. You will hardly ever see me in an expat bar (or really any bar - I'm more of a restaurant/bistro/cafe kinda gal). If I am in one I'm probably with friends and ignoring whatever else is going on. So I'm not about to go on some exploratory mission to see how many expat guys in Taiwan are Asian fetishist assholes and how many aren't!

I'm not going to jump all over my friend, though, because I know him well enough to know that he wouldn't jump all over a man and a woman hooking up just because the man's a foreigner and the woman's a local. He's not anti-CCR or anything. Knowing him as I do - and you'll just have to take my word for it - his disdain is reserved for exactly the kind of expat I also don't care for, and he's smart enough to know that not every expat guy can be chucked in the same Bin of Judgment.

Frankly the ones who bother me more than guys at a bar gettin' their Milk Duds on are the ones who think Asian women are "better" because they're "slimmer", "more feminine", "more ladylike", "respect a man", "more beautiful", "more naturally female", "more agreeable" than other women. And they think all Asian women are that way (and are totally blind to, say, all the obasans out there who aren't). They make no distinction between individuals - it's all based on race and all based on sexist notions of what a 'good' woman 'should' be. I've met a few of these guys in China and Taiwan. To me that's Asian fetishism, and it's icky.
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Re: Are foreigners supposed to be extroverts?

Postby Big Vern » Mon Sep 02, 2013 00:40

channamasala wrote:
It's really irritating, though, every time it's even whispered that there might be some guys like this in Taiwan, that the person who says it is dismissed as being lonely/sad/racist/a hater/jealous/a loser/a dweeb/whatever.

It's a bit over-defensive, maybe?


The same line could be applied to defend any generalisation. If they get offended by it then it must be offensive. Is that not right?
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Re: Are foreigners supposed to be extroverts?

Postby channamasala » Mon Sep 02, 2013 07:18

Big Vern wrote:
channamasala wrote:
It's really irritating, though, every time it's even whispered that there might be some guys like this in Taiwan, that the person who says it is dismissed as being lonely/sad/racist/a hater/jealous/a loser/a dweeb/whatever.

It's a bit over-defensive, maybe?


The same line could be applied to defend any generalisation. If they get offended by it then it must be offensive. Is that not right?


I have tried very, very hard in this off-topic discussion (which can continue for awhile, but at some point might be spliced off because it's really not on topic at all) not to generalize, because it wouldn't be fair or right, and because it wouldn't accurately reflect my views on the matter. It's a thing that exists. Some guys have this problem. Some guys in Taiwan have this problem. I've met more than one. Hell, I know two just from one part of my life in Taiwan who have said openly that this is how they feel. There are assholes everywhere, and this is one kind of asshole. Doesn't mean everyone is an asshole.

At no point did I generalize about all foreign guys, or all foreign guys with Taiwanese women (doing whatever). That wouldn't be fair.

Of course, Big Vern, you did see the generalization above about Taiwanese men? How every Taiwanese man who has an opinion on this must be some Halo-playing small-dicked loser who can't get any?

The quote from my friend sounded generalizing, true. I know him well enough to know that he doesn't feel that way about foreign men in general (and he spends a fair amount of time with them for work so it's not like he's never talked to them or anything). If I thought he did, I'd tell him to step off...watch out for generalizations and don't be a dick.
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Re: Are foreigners supposed to be extroverts?

Postby Big Vern » Mon Sep 02, 2013 08:01

channamasala wrote:
At no point did I generalize about all foreign guys, or all foreign guys with Taiwanese women (doing whatever). That wouldn't be fair.

Of course, Big Vern, you did see the generalization above about Taiwanese men? How every Taiwanese man who has an opinion on this must be some Halo-playing small-dicked loser who can't get any?


That generalisation is equally bad. Are you making the point that I didn't comment on it and should have?

Racists and misogynists are getting very skilled at questioning why people are so easily offended. It's a tool they use to silence discussion. Anyone who makes an issue about their negative generalisations is simply being overly-sensitive or emotional. In previous threads you have, quite rightly, made it clear that you oppose this. Bigots are also highly adept at using modifiers such as "some" and "many" in order to defend their stereotypes. They also use quotations from others to create distance from their comments. All of this makes disagreement difficult. I'm sure that you have seen some of the more reactionary members of this site sometimes pull such tricks. Do you see? I just did it myself :smile: .

However, you frequently raise you issue of western men who have a "fetish" for Asian women. That's fine, even if it is usually not the thread topic. We all have our pet peeves. Now, though, you are suggesting that those who object are "over-defensive". Just seems to me like you're having your cake and eating it.
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Re: Are foreigners supposed to be extroverts?

Postby HeadhonchoII » Mon Sep 02, 2013 08:15

What's strange about foreign guys in Taiwan liking Asian girls?
I mean if they liked Latinas they might be in Brazil right?

As for guy going to bars meeting girls, what does a girl who meets a guy in such a bar expect, how do we know they are not doing the same thing?

There's some jerks with no social skills here but the locals ain't exactly bubbling over in this dept either.

Also look at the way women are pushed into subservient roles especially by in-laws or paid badly, I don't see them getting worried about that.

As I said, it's 99% sexual jealousy, you'll notice they don't moan about gay foreigners lol.
But you got to ask yourself the question....what would astronaut Chris Hatfield do?
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Re: Are foreigners supposed to be extroverts?

Postby Kal El » Mon Sep 02, 2013 09:46

Everyone's basically said whatever I was going to say anyway, but yeah, a Taiwanese of Chinese ethnicity who thinks a white guy and his white wife are cool whether they're introverts or extroverts doesn't surprise me. I may have generalised a bit, but so what, the ethnic Han (as the erroneously like to refer to themselves) generalise all the time, so why can't I?
Sure, there are some guys who get their willies on with screwing a different girl or two every weekend, but it's a two way street. The girl is going home and opening her legs for a bloke she doesn't know after a few beers and incoherent conversation. So if he's gross, what does that make her? Tit for tat. What's good for the goose and all that.
And don't get me started on my "ethincally Han" compatriots. WTF are there so many motels here, and why do they flourish so, even in the face of a poor economy and other businesses constantly going bust? Are they being kept afloat by all the "extroverted gross foreigners"? No, the locals are doing a pretty good job of screwing anything with a heart beat left right and center, with or without a wife or gf.

As someone above said so succintly: Men like women. However, women like men pretty much also. Put the two together and there's going to be a lot of screwing.
You can call promiscuous behaviour gross, or fetishist because of location, but there are usually two parties involved, and I'll wager that 99% of the promiscuous screwing, ONS and cheating on this fair island are done by Taiwanese. It's a numbers game.

So I pretty much stick to what I said before:
Kal El wrote:Seems like the only common thread there is you're both ok, and the between the lines text is because neither of you are screwing any local girls. :idunno:


Although my second post was probably over judgmental, but after a while it gets a bit tiresome. Piesay.
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Re: Are foreigners supposed to be extroverts?

Postby cfimages » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:08

Kal El wrote: WTF are there so many motels here, and why do they flourish so, even in the face of a poor economy and other businesses constantly going bust? Are they being kept afloat by all the "extroverted gross foreigners"? No, the locals are doing a pretty good job of screwing anything with a heart beat left right and center, with or without a wife or gf.

As someone above said so succintly: Men like women. However, women like men pretty much also. Put the two together and there's going to be a lot of screwing.
You can call promiscuous behaviour gross, or fetishist because of location, but there are usually two parties involved, and I'll wager that 99% of the promiscuous screwing, ONS and cheating on this fair island are done by Taiwanese. It's a numbers game.



People like to generalize even when it doesn't meet reality.

It's like the sex industry in Thailand. People always talk about the evil Euro sex tourists while forgetting that 98% of the patrons of Thai prostitutes are Thai men.

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